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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:28 am

VasQuezTheGreat wrote:From what I read above it looks like the instances are not going to be completed for a while? My suggestion is to remove them from the map, or open 1 or 2 as a jew refuge that you can ship to with a Zeppelin and black out the rest. This is so you could still use some of the awesome looking instances that are not finished. Hopefully zizu will continue working as the bugs and game play issues are worked out in the beta.

I'm looking forward to playing and I'm sure no matter what you choose its gona be sick.

Yeah I'm not going to add instances, just use the 3 completed Auchindoun instances as "Jew Isles" separetely, maybe share an empire spawn or be linked two or all 3 idk. Also, Zizu's going to continue working on the map but no instances. I think it's for the best, instances don't really work for a risk map imo.

@Navy: Expect Sunday night at the latest. Sorry for all the delays! My computer keeps messing up my plans I got really ticked off but... I'm back on track now with this gimpy computer.

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Post  fattythefat on Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:33 pm

Nickel510 wrote:
VasQuezTheGreat wrote:From what I read above it looks like the instances are not going to be completed for a while? My suggestion is to remove them from the map, or open 1 or 2 as a jew refuge that you can ship to with a Zeppelin and black out the rest. This is so you could still use some of the awesome looking instances that are not finished. Hopefully zizu will continue working as the bugs and game play issues are worked out in the beta.

I'm looking forward to playing and I'm sure no matter what you choose its gona be sick.

Yeah I'm not going to add instances, just use the 3 completed Auchindoun instances as "Jew Isles" separetely, maybe share an empire spawn or be linked two or all 3 idk. Also, Zizu's going to continue working on the map but no instances. I think it's for the best, instances don't really work for a risk map imo.

@Navy: Expect Sunday night at the latest. Sorry for all the delays! My computer keeps messing up my plans I got really ticked off but... I'm back on track now with this gimpy computer.
I think it's sad that you are not gonna use the instances... I have seen risk maps with Instances and I really love them! And how are you gonna use them as islands? Will you erase all the nice terrain zizu did on them?
Edit: it is sad that you trashed this map for Cata...
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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:00 pm

Ya I mean Cata just adds like 3 zones and changes one, and adds like 5 new races... It's so sad D: And you mean tomorrow right?
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:35 pm

I am not trashing this map for Cataclysm. I actually am having second thoughts about Cataclysm as I just learned WoW RISK actually uses about 380 tiles, so a 480 tile map would not be THAT much bigger/worth it.

@fatty: I have never seen a risk map that has 15 instances, nor should there be one! Which is how many instances Outland Risk would have. It just would not be a good thing.

Also, I'm going to use Auchindoun instances as islands, I won't be erasing the terrain. I wouldn't be using the instance if I was going to erase it would I?

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:39 pm

So Cataclysm may be a no-go? Why not just Priwin to edit the zones to make them cata-like and stuff... And no offense to you it just wasn't that great an idea in my opinion...
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:46 pm

The idea was making a huge epic risk map, cataclysm was just a good way to bring in fans, plus the races were already in place. But now that I know a 480 tile map is only 100 tiles bigger, I don't think it's really worth it to recreate the whole map. And like you said, Cataclysm didn't change that much. It was more to just be original plus I think a lot of people would like to see an updated WoW Risk map after the cataclysm happens. But I'm not going to mod Priwin's map. I'd rather do something better.

I'm probably not going to abandon Outland after the beta release.

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:48 pm

So Outland Risk will live on! *Cheers* Yay! Does that mean instances may eventually be added?
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:59 pm

No dangit. I already said instances is not a good idea for a risk map!

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:00 pm

Instances make good enough sense to me... and Anyways are you atleast going to make the places like a bit bigger in the places where instances are?
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:04 pm

Well Hellfire Citadel is already massive. As is Black Temple. Auchindoun probably, for sure Tempest Keep. As for CFR not sure, it's underwater so... we'll see.

And I don't like the idea of instances because it breaks up the terrain to much and forces people to use portal luring. If instances were added, there would be so many portals it would be ridiculous. And I think portals take away from strategy as it removes all need or possibility of maneuvering. You go in the portal, and your destination is pre-determined. I just don't think it would work nearly as good as just a big land mass.

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:08 pm

Don't use portals then just make a bunch of jew islands... That's what you did with Auchindoun isn't it?
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:11 pm

*palm to forehead* If they're Islands then they aren't exactly instances are they?

Floating instances that you can go to by ship instead of reaching them by the instance exterior via portals (like Hellfire Citadel and Black Temple) would make them... not instances.

So are you agreeing with me that instances don't work or what are you saying?

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:26 pm

Well yes the portal luring would ruin the game and stuff but what I am saying is just use the instances as Jew Islands like make the actual instances... Just don't use portals make the islands for all the little jews to head to
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:28 pm

That's what I'm doing with Auchindoun, but I can't make 17 instances that are islands.

That wouldn't work or make any sense. Plus Zizu would have a fit. He's a lore fanatic.

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:32 pm

As am I... How would in not make sense/work?
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:34 pm

... OK how are people going to reach these 17 instances if not by portal? By ship? How does that fit into Outland lore?

Have you ever played WoW?

People reach instances via the instance exterior, IE, people should enter the Black Temple instances via portals that are outside the Black Temple exterior. This is the only thing that makes sense.

Entering an instance that is inside a building by flying to an island makes no sense.

Capeesh?

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Post  NavySeal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:35 pm

Look I've played WoW and obviously WC3 but look at WoWR... not the most accurate game... But who cares it's your map just make it damnit!
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Post  Nickel510 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:37 pm

I don't want 17 huge unlinked islands. Look how big the 3 Auchindoun instances are! Plus WoWR is actually really accurate to the actual map. I don't mean the gameplay or races, but the terrain is.

IMO 17 floating instances is just... lame.

So yeah, not going to wait another 5 months for Zizu to make these instances when the idea is not very good anyways.

There are other ways I can expand the Outland Terrain.

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Post  fattythefat on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:47 pm

But those regions wouldnt have been that big, and would probably not be the site of a big battle, cause if someone turtled inside one you could just take the rest of the map and win by getting 80%...
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Post  Roflpotamus on Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:04 am

I agree with Nick, instances are a bad idea.

A. Portal luring.
B. They're fucking huge, as big as straight up land-masses in Outlands Risk
C. Portal camping.
D. They mess up balancing of races, as stands, Auch can be split into two on the main map between the Etherals and the Shadow Council, and now Terrokar has 3 races instead of just one: the Arrokoa.
E. Balance.

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Post  Roflpotamus on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:32 am

Every hero should cost the same amount of gold.

Every faction should get a special event that is clearly outlined in f9, otherwise it's Pros raping bozos 24/7.

The Auch suggestion actually would work beautifully.

However, wtf shall be done with Shatt? Which is beautiful btw.

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Post  NavySeal on Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:09 am

Nickel510 wrote:I don't want 17 huge unlinked islands. Look how big the 3 Auchindoun instances are! Plus WoWR is actually really accurate to the actual map. I don't mean the gameplay or races, but the terrain is.

IMO 17 floating instances is just... lame.

So yeah, not going to wait another 5 months for Zizu to make these instances when the idea is not very good anyways.

There are other ways I can expand the Outland Terrain.

See the thing is for WoWR that some places aren't there (Deadwind Pass) and some places are in the wrong areas (BOTH Dalarans...)
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Post  Roflpotamus on Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:35 am

Another thing is that in WoW Risk if you lose a big fight, you're done for

You don't have any time to recover to be able to push them back unless you get a lucky break and someone attacks them.

In regular risk they solve this with the "card" system where you get a card for every turn that you conquered at least one territory. After getting 3 of a kind or 3 distinct ones (out of three), you turn them in and get increasingly more reinforcements.

Additionally, in regular risk, after taking a territory, only 3 units can step in until it is the movement turn, effectively limiting the number of potential attackers to two.

Since the latter can't be done, and the former would offer no respite for people being owned since WoW Risk is straight up a tug of war up and down battle more often than not, what ideas do people have to rectify this?

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Post  Nickel510 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:39 am

Roflpotamus wrote:Another thing is that in WoW Risk if you lose a big fight, you're done for

You don't have any time to recover to be able to push them back unless you get a lucky break and someone attacks them.

In regular risk they solve this with the "card" system where you get a card for every turn that you conquered at least one territory. After getting 3 of a kind or 3 distinct ones (out of three), you turn them in and get increasingly more reinforcements.

Additionally, in regular risk, after taking a territory, only 3 units can step in until it is the movement turn, effectively limiting the number of potential attackers to two.

Since the latter can't be done, and the former would offer no respite for people being owned since WoW Risk is straight up a tug of war up and down battle more often than not, what ideas do people have to rectify this?

Excellent posts there Rofl, you raise some good points.

To answer your first question from an earlier post, Shattrath will remain instanced. It was planned from the start to be the only instanced area, since Shattrath is a pretty cool city and it seemed like a good idea. Then Zizu offered to do instances and so I decided to include them, but I'm reverting back to my initial plans with the inclusion of those Auchindoun instances, now 'Jew Isles' lol.
Shattrath is fairly small and will have multiple entrances, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Unfortunately, as I said before, Shattrath won't be included in the initial release. Zizu never included an elevator system so there is no way to reach the Scryer and Draenei tiers. I could use portals but that sounds so... bleh.

About heroes, I'm not so sure every hero should cost the same. When I had planned to have 16 units per race, I was going to have two heroes. One 100g and one 200g. Now, I probably won't.
But... Illidan is too epic to be some 100g shmuck! He must be... more epic. I am also currently not a fan of the WoW Risk hero system, it's boring to me and unbalanced, so we'll see where it goes. I'm open to suggestions. I might just stick to the WoW Risk hero system if enough people insist on it, but I think some originality in that department would be good for the map.

As for your last point, I'll need time to think about it. In video game terms I've heard this called 'snow-balling' where one side becomes more and more powerful as the other side loses. Making the game more of a race and as soon as one side begins to lose they're doomed. As far as I can see, teaming is the only current solution to snow-balling in WoW Risk.
If you want more information on this snow-balling effect read the first post.
I also posted a possible solution to it on the first post. But the system may be too complex from a trigger point of view. However, I completely agree and think their should be some system implemented that makes conquering your opponent more challenging the more you start to win. The more powerful you are, the more of a challenge there is, which would I think put skill before all else.
However, teaming would stand in the way of that too. Sometimes you need to be able to quickly sweep up an opponent before others have the chance to team you because they think you're getting too strong, or they just see it as a good time to attack.
Either way, it would take a good idea to combat this snow-balling effect for a risk map. We'll see how it turns out.

Last, what I really really want is to implement an AI system. Could be simple, not too skilled of an NPC just something to use to fill slots or play by yourself or fill an empty ally spot that you could even have the ability to turn the AI on and off in game if an NPC is your ally. So you could take full control of your ally if you wanted and then switch it back to AI if needed.

But we'll see where this map goes!



...... Was also planning to implement a Shogun Navy gold-harvesting system. But that might be a while. What a Face

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Post  NavySeal on Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Where would the gold be? Cause in Shogun it's like ships to harvest it... Would it just be like random goldmines?
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